Post by TheGrandKababi on Oct 21, 2011 9:10:08 GMT -8
repare for the broken record noise here, so far I've designed seven campaigns for Humans vs. Zombies at UVic, of those two included a cure. Which two was it? Yep, it was the first ones. Why did we dump it as a broken mechanic? Quite obviously because it is a broken mechanic.
There are several reasons that cures are just a bad idea for a game such as this. Many people have asked me personally why it disappeared as a play mechanic or in the case of the new players, why isn't there a cure. Sit back children, the Director is about to be long winded.
History of the Cure
In the past, there was a heavy emphasis on predetermined groups or squads, Mods felt that it would make the learning curve of HvZ easier and create a strong player base at UVic. In some missions that were known to be nigh on suicidal to complete fully, each squad was designated a medic who was given a limited number of cure bracelets. These bracelets were to be taken from the medic, placed on the tagged individual and then they would come back to the main "Medical Station" the bracelet would be cut and the tagged player and medic were to be marked. However, this took a huge strain on the honour system and very few people actually returned to the Med Station, they just put the bracelet on to deter the zombie once stunned, walk away and gave the bracelet back to the medic.
Along with the terrible side effects it had to game balance, some of the nastiest arguments I've seen have arisen from the availability of a cure. One cure in hand, two zeds rush a friend holding the cure and instead of playing the game and nomming brains, they stop ten feet in front of the human and demand to be cured. The helpless human has no idea of what to do and the two start screaming at him. Or another instance shows the potential for discrimination, a group holds the cure and a wave of zeds comes at them. The back human ranks start sizing up zeds by their ability as human and openly knock certain players abilities. Some people get way too into it is the best way to put it, but always you have to remember that it's a game and becoming a zed is not the worst thing ever.
Regulating
When a campaign is designed, all of the variables are tossed into a pot and scaled accordingly with the number of players that are attending. For example, on the field there was one melee weapon per 50 persons playing the game and there was approximately 2500 "Zombie Bucks" in the field for each player plus the money to earn from making tags as zeds.
With a cure, there is always the option to scale it in this manner, but then that breaks one of the key points of the game. Take the scenario that right off the bat, humans purchase or obtain five cures, in HvZ zombie population growth is exponential. For the first hour, the OZ's maybe get ten tags tops. With those five cures in hand, the game is basically slowed down by a half hour, potentially grinding the whole HvZ to a game of H. One complaint that arises every time is that the game has a slow start, with cures in place, roaming hordes may not appear until hour three or later and the majority of the campaign will pass with human objectives going uncontested.
This problem is only exacerbated when playing week-long games like the original game is intended to be and will be tried at UVic in the near future. In that game variant, zombies that do not make kills frequently (at least once every 48 hours) starve and are out of the game. Adding in antidotes can and will eliminate players from play, which is just not fun for anyone and deters players from coming back to play again.
As can be seen in the history of the cure at UVic, having a cure is a difficult thing to manage since the game already relies heavily on players calling themselves out. Supplying a option to not be out of the game gives players a potential bluff to send a successful zed away empty handed. To properly implement a cure, a definitive and fair method would have to be put in place.
Zeds Become Secondary
The game is at heart a two sided conflict on a very shaky balance. Humans have the advantage of ranged abilities and more tactical opportunities whereas the zombies have their infinite life and the ability to increase their numbers. Taking away the advantage of being able to grow numbers is a huge blow to the way zeds work. "Why even tag if they potentially have a cure? There'd be no point in my effort"
I've seen the disappointment on players faces when they tag me after jumping through the bushes to find that I have a red mod bandana around my neck, taking away a valid tag on a human after a cunning trap I could only imagine to be worse.
This idea of a cure relegates zombies to second class players. Yes, while plotlines are (unfortunately) almost always human centric due to the fact that the player base starts off that way, you can't treat zombies as if they're NPCs, and not players. The game is fun because even after "death" the game goes on. It moves from a game of paranoia to a fast paced game of hunting and trapping.
As stated before, zeds in some cases see the cure held by a human player and will not charge for the kill. This slows the game down for everyone and takes away from the experience in general. Without playing full heartedly and wanting to go back to the human side, it further emphasizes the negative stereotype that zombies are secondary characters in the game. The cash store with upgrades for zombies has been the first step in removing the way human players look down on the zombie role and in the future there will be more zombie centric missions to assist this but adding in the cure in my opinion will be a jump backward.
A Second Chance Already Exists
Many players look on the cure as a second chance to show their merit as a human and a key part of any zombie story. A cure or solution to the zombie outbreak has been the central theme of the past five campaigns, but this solution has been unobtainable due to the fact that humans in general are defeated around 75% of the way through the plot line. To further postpone the inevitable, the human cash store was implemented to bring players bonuses and assistance when needed.
Stimpacks were on sale in the human cash store for 2500, the amount of cash tossed on the field for each player, but only three were ever purchased. The way these worked was at the start of a mission, you would tell a mod that you had taken a stimpack, your player ID would be stamped and off you went. If you got tagged, you just had to go see the moderator refereeing that game and voila, second life until you got tagged again or that mission was over.
As a Mod Squad we thought this was the best solution since it kept the unidirectional flow of H to Z and brought an opportunity for an "antidote" that players were asking about adding to the game in case they got tagged and wanted a do over. The zed who made the tag still gets the credit and the human still gets to play as a human for a little while.
Possibilities
So, let's take stock. The game works best unidirectionally. Making cures work is a logistic nightmare for players and Mods. There already is a version of the cure in play that limits the negatives of the other points, just nobody capitalized on this.
I'm one for balance in the games I run. The last campaign was an even strength game, only projectiles and because of that the zombie escalation was that much quicker. This time we included a limited amount of melee to give select few humans the distinct advantage, as long as they worked for it. I'd be open for a cure being included in the game, but it would be very limited in availability and would like melee, need to be earned(prepare the groans of more scavenger hunts for red stairs).
However, giving humans the distinct advantage of being able to cheat death and engage zombies in hand to hand, that's far too much. I am not a giving Director. This is going down to a choice of one or the other. The ability to defend a group of humans by holding a narrow pass with a boffer, or the ability to revive a squad member. I see the obvious greater valued item, but we should let democracy rule.
The forum is here to discuss and when it gets closer to game time, we can put up a poll of what is wanted.
If you read this far, good job for paying attention to my rambling.
There are several reasons that cures are just a bad idea for a game such as this. Many people have asked me personally why it disappeared as a play mechanic or in the case of the new players, why isn't there a cure. Sit back children, the Director is about to be long winded.
History of the Cure
In the past, there was a heavy emphasis on predetermined groups or squads, Mods felt that it would make the learning curve of HvZ easier and create a strong player base at UVic. In some missions that were known to be nigh on suicidal to complete fully, each squad was designated a medic who was given a limited number of cure bracelets. These bracelets were to be taken from the medic, placed on the tagged individual and then they would come back to the main "Medical Station" the bracelet would be cut and the tagged player and medic were to be marked. However, this took a huge strain on the honour system and very few people actually returned to the Med Station, they just put the bracelet on to deter the zombie once stunned, walk away and gave the bracelet back to the medic.
Along with the terrible side effects it had to game balance, some of the nastiest arguments I've seen have arisen from the availability of a cure. One cure in hand, two zeds rush a friend holding the cure and instead of playing the game and nomming brains, they stop ten feet in front of the human and demand to be cured. The helpless human has no idea of what to do and the two start screaming at him. Or another instance shows the potential for discrimination, a group holds the cure and a wave of zeds comes at them. The back human ranks start sizing up zeds by their ability as human and openly knock certain players abilities. Some people get way too into it is the best way to put it, but always you have to remember that it's a game and becoming a zed is not the worst thing ever.
Regulating
When a campaign is designed, all of the variables are tossed into a pot and scaled accordingly with the number of players that are attending. For example, on the field there was one melee weapon per 50 persons playing the game and there was approximately 2500 "Zombie Bucks" in the field for each player plus the money to earn from making tags as zeds.
With a cure, there is always the option to scale it in this manner, but then that breaks one of the key points of the game. Take the scenario that right off the bat, humans purchase or obtain five cures, in HvZ zombie population growth is exponential. For the first hour, the OZ's maybe get ten tags tops. With those five cures in hand, the game is basically slowed down by a half hour, potentially grinding the whole HvZ to a game of H. One complaint that arises every time is that the game has a slow start, with cures in place, roaming hordes may not appear until hour three or later and the majority of the campaign will pass with human objectives going uncontested.
This problem is only exacerbated when playing week-long games like the original game is intended to be and will be tried at UVic in the near future. In that game variant, zombies that do not make kills frequently (at least once every 48 hours) starve and are out of the game. Adding in antidotes can and will eliminate players from play, which is just not fun for anyone and deters players from coming back to play again.
As can be seen in the history of the cure at UVic, having a cure is a difficult thing to manage since the game already relies heavily on players calling themselves out. Supplying a option to not be out of the game gives players a potential bluff to send a successful zed away empty handed. To properly implement a cure, a definitive and fair method would have to be put in place.
Zeds Become Secondary
The game is at heart a two sided conflict on a very shaky balance. Humans have the advantage of ranged abilities and more tactical opportunities whereas the zombies have their infinite life and the ability to increase their numbers. Taking away the advantage of being able to grow numbers is a huge blow to the way zeds work. "Why even tag if they potentially have a cure? There'd be no point in my effort"
I've seen the disappointment on players faces when they tag me after jumping through the bushes to find that I have a red mod bandana around my neck, taking away a valid tag on a human after a cunning trap I could only imagine to be worse.
This idea of a cure relegates zombies to second class players. Yes, while plotlines are (unfortunately) almost always human centric due to the fact that the player base starts off that way, you can't treat zombies as if they're NPCs, and not players. The game is fun because even after "death" the game goes on. It moves from a game of paranoia to a fast paced game of hunting and trapping.
As stated before, zeds in some cases see the cure held by a human player and will not charge for the kill. This slows the game down for everyone and takes away from the experience in general. Without playing full heartedly and wanting to go back to the human side, it further emphasizes the negative stereotype that zombies are secondary characters in the game. The cash store with upgrades for zombies has been the first step in removing the way human players look down on the zombie role and in the future there will be more zombie centric missions to assist this but adding in the cure in my opinion will be a jump backward.
A Second Chance Already Exists
Many players look on the cure as a second chance to show their merit as a human and a key part of any zombie story. A cure or solution to the zombie outbreak has been the central theme of the past five campaigns, but this solution has been unobtainable due to the fact that humans in general are defeated around 75% of the way through the plot line. To further postpone the inevitable, the human cash store was implemented to bring players bonuses and assistance when needed.
Stimpacks were on sale in the human cash store for 2500, the amount of cash tossed on the field for each player, but only three were ever purchased. The way these worked was at the start of a mission, you would tell a mod that you had taken a stimpack, your player ID would be stamped and off you went. If you got tagged, you just had to go see the moderator refereeing that game and voila, second life until you got tagged again or that mission was over.
As a Mod Squad we thought this was the best solution since it kept the unidirectional flow of H to Z and brought an opportunity for an "antidote" that players were asking about adding to the game in case they got tagged and wanted a do over. The zed who made the tag still gets the credit and the human still gets to play as a human for a little while.
Possibilities
So, let's take stock. The game works best unidirectionally. Making cures work is a logistic nightmare for players and Mods. There already is a version of the cure in play that limits the negatives of the other points, just nobody capitalized on this.
I'm one for balance in the games I run. The last campaign was an even strength game, only projectiles and because of that the zombie escalation was that much quicker. This time we included a limited amount of melee to give select few humans the distinct advantage, as long as they worked for it. I'd be open for a cure being included in the game, but it would be very limited in availability and would like melee, need to be earned(prepare the groans of more scavenger hunts for red stairs).
However, giving humans the distinct advantage of being able to cheat death and engage zombies in hand to hand, that's far too much. I am not a giving Director. This is going down to a choice of one or the other. The ability to defend a group of humans by holding a narrow pass with a boffer, or the ability to revive a squad member. I see the obvious greater valued item, but we should let democracy rule.
The forum is here to discuss and when it gets closer to game time, we can put up a poll of what is wanted.
If you read this far, good job for paying attention to my rambling.